作用尷尬？美國球迷熱議傳球第一的「純控衛」難以奪冠？
The greatest "pure" point guards have habits of not winning rings, do we overate pure pgs?
那些偉大的「純控衛」在奪冠方面都有些肌無力，所以「純控衛」是不是有些被高看了？
All time greats like Nash and Stockton two of the first names you think of when you think of pure pgs, neither won a ring.
Jason kidd, he did win a ring with the mavs, but that was towards the tail end of his career and teamed up with dirk, he wasn't able to do it with his new Jersey squads.
Even lesser great point guards who tended to be pass first struggled to win, guys like J-will, Mike Bibby, Damon Stoudamire, who are comparitively similar to guys like Rondo, Andre Miller and Rubio, had trouble winning much even with decent teams around them.
Jason williams, though not an all time great point guard, definitely an electrifying name and passer, he didn't win as the guy in sactown, and like kidd was only able to nab one late in his career after his prime with the heat a d wade.
Andre Miller, has the most assists out of any active NBA player and edit: is 9th all time. He hasn't won a ring either.
In today's league, there is cp3 an all time great pure pg who's name will go up alongside Nash and Stockton as defining the word pure point guard, no doubt, but it looks likely at this stage of his career he will join the ranks of the ringless as well.
John Wall, seen as Chris Pauls close successor in a league with few pass first pgs left, wall also seems to have trouble winning, almost like the infamous Melo effect. He is very good but no matter what he does his team's don't seem to follow suite.
Rajon Rondo, won rings, true, but since his tenure in boston, and the big three growing from their prime, he has done little but pad his stats in Sacramento, according to kings fans, with dirty dimes. His change in quality play could be due to his knee injury which many claim have changed him but his pass first style hasn't won him any rings without 3 hall of famers by his side.
Do we overate pass first point guards? Is better to have scoring minded guards with the score first create second mentality? Or is just a coincidence and circumstance these guys didn't win and I'm reaching for something that isn't there?
提到歷史級的純控衛，納什和斯託克頓是我們會最先想到的人，可他倆都沒拿過冠軍。
傑森-基德，他確實跟著小牛拿了一次冠軍，但也是在生涯末年和德克合力才拿到的，他和他的那支籃網也沒能力做到奪冠。
甚至那些名頭沒那麼響但是依舊更偏向於傳球的後衛，也很難贏到底，比如說，傑森-威廉士，邁克-畢比，達蒙-斯塔德邁爾這些，在一定程度上跟隆多，米勒，盧比奧有一些相似的球員，想多贏下一些球都有些困難，哪怕身邊的球隊還挺優秀的。
傑森-威廉士，儘管不是一個歷史級的控球後衛，但絕對是一個響噹噹的名字，以及騷氣的傳球手，他和國王那些傢伙一起的時候沒能贏下冠軍，最後也是像基德一樣在生涯末年，在他巔峰已過之後跟著韋德的熱火，混了一個戒指，
安德烈-米勒，現役NBA球員裡助攻次數最多的運動員，同時是歷史第九多，他也沒拿過冠軍。
現今的聯盟，有保羅這樣的將來要和納什，斯託克頓齊名的歷史級純控衛，同時這三人也是對純控衛這個詞的定義。不過從他現階段的職業生涯來看，他估計也要加入無冠球員的隊伍了。
約翰-沃爾，在這個傳球至上的後衛已經不剩幾個的聯盟裡，被看作是最接近克裡斯保羅的人。沃爾看起來贏球也有困難，就好像是那個聽起來很刺耳的甜瓜效應：「他真的很強很厲害，但不管他幹啥，他的球隊好像就是贏不了球」
拉簡隆多，是拿了冠軍沒錯，但從他在凱爾特人的試用期結束，以及三巨頭巔峰已過需要他扛大旗的時候，他卻沒有什麼太多太好的表現，去國王的時候還把自己的數據搞砸了，根據國王球迷的說法，都是刷出來的助攻。他打出高質量比賽的能力發生改變的原因，根據很多人的說法，有可能是他的膝蓋傷勢，但他傳球至上的風格並沒有讓他在離開三個未來名人堂成員之後拿到冠軍。
我們是不是高估了傳球至上的這些控衛們？是不是那些有著「得分第一，創造機會第二」的理念的得分主義後衛會更好？或者只是在一個巧合和偶然的環境下，這些人沒能贏球，那我想要得到結論就不存在了。
[–]WarriorsGhoul-Sama 212 指標 1 月前
The only reason Stockton doesn't have a ring is because of Jordan and the Bulls.
斯託克頓沒拿到冠軍的原因是遇上了喬丹和他的公牛。
[–]Warriorsjlove712 54 指標 1 月前
What about during the Rockets 2peat?
那火箭兩連冠的時候怎麼解釋？
[–][MIA] LeBron JamesTheLaughingCats 97 指標 1 月前
no one in gods green earth was stopping hakeem those two years
地球上沒有人能在那兩年裡阻止奧拉朱旺。
[–]CelticsZach_Of_All_Trades 61 指標 1 月前
There are always great teams preventing others from winning championships. Malone and Stockton are supposedly/arguably top three players at their position all time, played together practically their entire careers, and never won anything.
歷史上總會有偉大的球隊，阻止別的偉大的球隊奪得冠軍。馬龍和斯託克頓在他們的位置上差不多是各自位置的歷史前三，幾乎整個生涯都在一起打球，卻啥都沒贏下來。
[–]dirtybird04 33 指標 1 月前
JKidd went to two straight finals, he doesn't have a ring because of Shaq/Kobe.
Steve Nash came so close, he doesn't have a ring because of Duncan/Pop.
基德連進了兩年總決賽，他沒奪冠因為遇上了OK組合。
納什也很接近了，他沒能拿到戒指因為遇上了鄧肯和波波的馬刺。
[–]TheRastafarianRabbi 19 指標 1 月前
JKidd does have a ring
基德是有戒指的哦。
[–]Hornetsvikes23 9 指標 1 月前
He didn't win it as the main piece of the team though.
Not that it detracts from him being a champ, but for the purpose of the post, he's saying "pure" pgs haven't won a ring as a center peice I guess.
但他並沒能作為球隊的主要一員拿到戒指。
雖然這也不能剝奪他拿過戒指的事實。但光就這個帖子來說，我覺的樓主的意思應該是說，純控衛沒能作為球隊的核心來奪冠。
[–]RocketsDoULikeItHarden 9 指標 1 月前
how many non-pure pgs have been the main piece of a championship team? genuinely curious
到底有多少只冠軍球隊的核心是純控衛？我是真心好奇。
[–]warvath 122 指標 1 月前
Was magic not a "pure pg"? Im too young to have watched him back in the 80s, but I always hear about his great passing.
魔術師到底算不算一個純控衛？80年代的時候我還太年輕了，沒看過他的比賽，但我總會聽說他傳球很棒。
[–]BullsManofStalebread 131 指標 1 月前
He was more. He had a power forward's body, could basically play all 5 positions (famously played center in game 6 of the 1980 NBA finals). Best point guard of all time.
他還要更全能。他有大前鋒的身材，基本可以打五個位置（最出名的就是在1980年總決賽第六場出任中鋒）。歷史最棒的控球後衛。
[–]warvath 42 指標 1 月前
With all that considered... He was still a pass first pg like the op was talking about.
就算把那些全都考慮進來，他還是一個樓主描述的那樣的傳球至上的控球後衛。
[–]RocketsDoULikeItHarden 24 指標 1 月前
who cares what his size was, he was still a pass first pg so this whole notion that a pass first pg doesn't win it as often is simply stupid
誰在乎他體格有多大，他不管怎樣都是一個傳球至上的控衛，所以我覺得這整個「傳統控衛拿不到冠軍「的論調真的很蠢。
[–][WAS] Michael JordanChiantiAndFavaBeans 102 指標 1 月前
He briefly played center for 1 game. He couldn't really play 5 positions capably and regularly. It's a fun myth, but he would have struggled playing long stretches in the post.
他也就是打了一場中鋒而已。他不能根據戰術需要常規的出任所有五個位置，也不是那麼能勝任全部五個位置的要求。雖然聽起來很強很好玩，但要他在禁區裡經歷大量的對抗對他來說一定很掙扎。
[–][PHI] Allen IversonDrBongRips 69 指標 1 月前
In the same sense a post defender "can" switch onto guards such as Noel or WCS, doesn't mean they can do it the whole game but can hold their own for a possession if need be
同樣的道理，一個禁區防守者可以換防到後衛上，比如說諾爾或者是威利-考利-斯坦。但這並不意味著他們可以整場防守小後衛，但在某次球權中需要的時候可以站住自己的位置。
[–]BulletsMind_Fcuk 19 指標 1 月前
He was not only a "pure pg," but also the best to ever play the position.
他並不只是一個純控衛，還是這個位置上的歷史最強的人啊。
[–]TheKeyNextDoor 6 指標 1 月前
He played with the greatest center ever...
他跟歷史最強中鋒一起打過球。
[–][LAL] Kareem Abdul-Jabbarfuckitiroastedyou 25 指標 1 月前
For the first 7 years he had arguably the best center in basketball for that span, but after Kareem became a replacement level center, Magic was still able to win a championship and go to numerous finals
在他生涯的頭七年，他跟籃球史上最強中鋒一個隊，但在賈巴爾漸漸變為一個輪換級別的球員後，魔術師還是贏下了一個冠軍，並且進了很多次總決賽。
[–]warvath 37 指標 1 月前
Yes most teams that win championships have good teammates. Which is why kidd and nash never won. Those teams they were on weren't very good.
沒錯，大多數拿下冠軍的球隊都有很棒的隊友。這也是為啥基德和納什從來沒贏過。他們在的多數球隊沒有特別強。
[–]Magicwhat_what_7 26 指標 1 月前
Kidd does have a championship, though. He won in 2011. Not anywhere near the player he was on the Nets and Suns, but he nonetheless has one.
但基德有一個冠軍啊。他在2011年跟小牛拿到了冠軍。雖然狀態跟他在籃網和太陽的時候大相逕庭，但他確實拿了一個冠軍。
[–]Hawksjumboponcho 39 指標 1 月前
I think we underrate the difficulty of winning a championship
我覺得我們都低估了拿到一個冠軍的難度。
[–]PelicansConsumedAM 159 指標 1 月前
This obsession with "pure" is overrated
對於「純」的痴迷被高估了。
[–]KnicksBASEDME7O 74 指標 1 月前
It means descended from James Naismith himself
這個定義是從籃球之父奈史密斯博士那裡繼承下來的。
[–]Bullsehs4290 10 指標 1 月前
Agreed. There's really no such thing as a pure anything nowadays.
同意。現在確實沒啥東西能稱得上是純的了。
[–]StriveGreatness22 59 指標 1 月前
I think you are overrating the ability of what one player can do.
我覺的你高估了單獨每個球員的能力。
[–]SpursCharlie_Steve 74 指標 1 月前
It's not facilitating that's overrated, it's assists. Facilitating is arguably the single most important skill in a team game like basketball, and assists only cover a tiny fraction of what that entails. I'm not going to overanalyze Stockton or Nash, they went up against all time greats like Jordan and the Dream and Duncan and Kobe and gave them runs for their money.
控衛推進的能力沒有被高估，是助攻能力的影響被高估了。推進可能是像籃球這樣的團隊運動裡最重要的一項技能了，而助攻只是整個推進中的一小部分，我不會過度分析斯託克頓和納什，他們崛起時對上了歷史最佳的球員，比如喬丹，大夢，鄧肯和科比，這些人真的跟他們打出了很多精彩的比賽。
[–]befree46 102 指標 1 月前
The greatest "scoring" point guards have habits of not winning rings, do we overate scoring pgs?
Reality of it is, most players don't win rings.
歷史上得分型控球後衛也有拿不到冠軍的傳統，我們是不是高估了得分型控球後衛？
事實實際上很簡單，就是大多數球員都拿不到戒指而已。
[–]LakersCoach_Popovich 64 指標 1 月前
Idk it seems like a lot the greats scoring PGs won rings...Isiah, Big O, Jerry West, Walt Frazier,Curry, Tony Parker
我不這麼覺得啊，好像大多數得分型控衛都拿到戒指了啊·····伊塞亞託馬斯，大O，傑裡韋斯特，沃特弗雷澤，庫裡，託尼帕克。
[–]brandnameb 5 指標 1 月前
Point Guard as a position is overrated. This doesn't mean having a point guard isn't a tremendous building block to have but there's two fundamental problems.
Point Guards are small. The inability to finish consistently over larger players limits their ability to score when absolutely necessary.
There's a lot of other good point guards. A point guards impact can be mitigated by their opponent's play easily.
Only Isiah Thomas and Steph Curry have broken this rule primarily because of tremendous team depth. Magic Johnson is 6'9.
控衛這個位置就是被高估了。但這也不意味著不能拿控衛來作為一個重要的建隊基石，但主要有兩個本質上的問題。
控衛們的體形都太小了，在面對體型更大隻的球員時沒法穩定的完成終結，限制了他們在需要的時候取分的能力、
同時，不錯的控球後衛又有很多。一個控球後衛所帶來的優勢和影響很容易被對手的戰術緩和掉。
只有伊塞亞託馬斯和庫裡打破了這個規則，因為他們球隊的陣容深度太可怕了。而魔術師詹森有六尺九寸。
[–][WAS] John Walllivefreeordont 12 指標 1 月前
You don't need a good point guard to win a ring. Mario Chalmers has 2, Fisher has 5, Kerr has 5, etc
想奪冠你不一定需要一個好的控球後衛。查爾莫斯有2個冠軍，費舍爾有5個冠軍，科爾也有5個，等等等等這樣的例子。
[–][LAL] Kareem Abdul-Jabbarfuckitiroastedyou 12 指標 1 月前
Yo get off my man Fisher
快放開我的費舍爾。
[–][WAS] John Walllivefreeordont 9 指標 1 月前
His best year on a championship team he put up 11 and 4. Chalmers best year was 10 and 4... So yeah
他在冠軍球隊最棒的一年交出了11+4的數據。而查爾莫斯最棒的一年是10+4.，所以你說的有點道理。
[–]New Jersey NetsDaylight_Marauder 385 指標 1 月前
Why do people lump Jason Williams into these discussions? Is it people who've never seen him actually play thinking he was like Pete Maravich or something? And you are overthinking this, most players don't win titles. I could make the same kind of post for scoring point guards.
人們為什麼會把傑森威廉士帶進這個討論中？是那些沒看過他打球的人覺得他像手槍馬拉威奇還是咋滴麼？同時關於這件事你真的想太多了，大多數球員都拿不到冠軍。我關於得分型後衛也能發個一模一樣的貼。
[–][POR] Brandon Royjaesuk97 114 指標 1 月前
White Chocolate is nothing like a "pure PG."
His overall passing game isn't even elite compared to guards like CP3, Stockton, etc. He just has flashy passes. This is why White Chocolate had a high turnover ratio.
Additionally he was incredibly inefficient and had a habit of over-dribbling.
Not sure why he was even considered a pure point.
白巧克力跟純控衛根本不沾邊。
如果和保羅，斯託克頓等等比起來的話，他的傳球根本算不上精英級。他只是能傳出靈光一現的球罷了，這也是為啥白巧克力的助攻失誤比那麼高。
再加一條，他的效率真的出奇的低，同時還有過分粘球的壞習慣。
我都不知道他為啥被視作是一個純控衛。
[–]Celticsmigibb 50 指標 1 月前
Not to argue with the overall point, but Jason Williams was never really close to even being an all-star. He was never "the guy" on the Kings and his best season in Sacramento was 12 points and 7 assists on 37/29/75 shooting splits with 3.7 turnovers per game.
His championship season in Miami was arguably his best season. He put up 12 and 5 but was actually efficient with an eFG% above 50% for the first time in his career.
更別提場均得分了，雖然傑森威廉士確實從來沒接近過全明星的級別。他也從來不是國王的頭牌巨星，他在國王最好的一年也只有12+7，命中率分別是37%，29%和75%，同時還有3.7次失誤。
他在邁阿密的冠軍賽季也有可能是他最棒的賽季，場均12+5但實際上真的很高效，因為那是他整個職業生涯第一次命中率突破50%。
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