PJ: I think it is possible to deal with the superficial hurts, but the deep hurts which one has…
普：我認為處理淺層的傷害是有可能的，但是對於我們受的那些深刻的傷害……
K: I want to know how you will deal with them. How will you deal with them?
克：我想知道你會如何去處理它們。你要如何去處理這些深刻的傷害呢？
PJ: How does one?
普：我要怎麼處理？
K: Go on, ask, find out how you deal with the deep hurts. How does the mind come upon the deep hurts? What is a hurt?
克：繼續，問一問，搞清楚你要怎麼處理這些深刻的傷害。心智要如何面對這些深刻的傷害？什麼是傷害？
PJ: Deep pain.
普：深深的痛苦。
K: Is there a deep hurt?
克：存在深刻的傷害嗎？
PJ: Yes.
普：存在。
K: What do you mean by deep hurt?
克：你所說的「深刻的傷害」是什麼意思？
PJ: When the nature and structure of consciousness undergoes a change...
普：當意識的本質和結構經歷了一場劇變……
K: What, what? Make it simpler, please.
克：什麼，什麼？請說得簡單點。
PJ: The really deep hurts are when the very nature of your being is on the edge of the sword because of a crisis.
普：真正深刻的傷害就在於，當你存在的本質由於某個危機而處在刀鋒邊緣的時候。
K: Be simple. Don’t you know all these factors? My brother dies, my son dies, or my husband or wife dies. It is a shock. The shock is a kind of hurt. I am asking, 『Is the hurt very deep, and what do you mean by very deep?』
克：簡單點。你難道不知道這些因素嗎？我的兄弟死了，我的兒子死了，或者我的丈夫或妻子死了，這是個打擊，這種打擊就是一種傷害。於是我問：「這種傷害很深嗎，你所說的非常深刻又是什麼意思？」
PJ: I see the conscious responses to it. I see what is being thrown out from the unconscious.
普：我看到了意識對此作出的反應，我看到了從無意識裡顯現出來的東西。
K: What is being thrown out?
克：什麼被顯現了出來？
PJ: What is being thrown out is pain.
普：痛苦。
K: Pain, of which you have not been aware before. And the shock reveals the pain. Which is—listen to it carefully—the pain was there, or the cause of pain.
克：痛苦，你以前未曾覺察到的痛苦，而打擊則把這個痛苦揭示了出來。存在的是哪個——仔細聽好——是痛苦，還是痛苦的原因。
PJ: The cause of pain.
普：是痛苦的原因。
K: That’s it. The cause of pain was there, of which I was not conscious. The shock comes and makes me aware of that pain.
克：沒錯，痛苦的原因一直都在那兒，只是我沒有意識到。打擊的出現使我察覺到了痛苦。
MF: But why can’t you say the shock creates the pain?
莫：但是為什麼你不可以說是打擊造成了痛苦呢？
K: No. I can’t say that. How can the shock create the pain? Pain was there.
克：不，我不能那麼說。打擊怎麼可能造成痛苦呢？痛苦其實一直都在。
MF: No, no.
莫：不，不是這樣的。
K: I』ll show you. Frydman, don’t jump to conclusions, don’t ask questions relevant or irrelevant. My brother is dead; that is absolutely final; I can’t bring him back. The world faces this problem, not just you and I—everybody faces this problem. It is a shock, including all that we have said. That shock is a deep hurt. Was the hurt there before, was the cause of the hurt there before, and has the shock only revealed it? The hurt was there because I had never faced it. I had said I would put all my faith in my brother. I had never faced the sense of loneliness, which is one of the factors of hurt. So before the shock comes, I look at loneliness. Before the shock comes, I know what it means to be alone. Before the shock comes, I go into this question of reliance, dependence, which are all the factors of hurt, the causes of hurt; they are all brought out when the shock comes. So when the shock comes, what happens? I have no hurt. I’m right, this is right.
克：我會解釋給你聽，弗萊德曼，不要急著下結論，不要問相關的或者無關的問題。我的兄弟死了；這是個無法挽回的最終的事實；我不可能把他帶回來。全世界都面臨著這個問題，不只是你和我——而是每個人都面臨著這個問題。這是個打擊，它包含了我們剛才所說的一切，這種打擊是一種深刻的傷害。那麼這個傷害是不是早已在那裡了，傷害的原因是不是早已在那裡了，只是打擊把它揭示了出來？傷害之所以一直在那兒，是因為我從來都沒有面對它。我說過我會把所有的信心都寄托在我兄弟身上，因此我從未面對那種孤獨的感覺，而這正是造成傷害的因素之一。所以在打擊來臨之前，我就觀察孤獨；在打擊來臨之前，我就知道了孤身一人意味著什麼；在打擊來臨之前，我就深入探究了依賴和依靠的問題——它們都是傷痛的因素和原因；當打擊來臨時，它們都被帶了出來。那麼當打擊來臨時，會發生什麼呢？我不會受傷。我很好，這就對了。
MF: What made you prepare yourself?
莫：是什麼促使你準備好自己的呢？
K: I didn’t prepare, I watched life. I watched the implications of attachment or indifference or of trying to cultivate independence because I must not depend. Dependence causes pain, therefore I cultivate independence, and that may also bring pain. So I watched in myself that dependence of any kind must inevitably bring about deep hurt. I have gone into it, I said, 『Now finished』. So when the shock comes, the cause of hurt is not; a totally different thing takes place. That’s what I want to get at.
克：我沒有準備，我只是觀察生活。我觀察執著或者冷漠的含義，觀察因為我一定不能依賴而去刻意培養獨立自主，這其中隱含著什麼。依賴滋生痛苦，所以我培養獨立，而那或許也會帶來痛苦。因此我觀察自己的內心，發現任何依賴都不可避免地會帶來深刻的傷害。我已經深入了解了它，我說：「到此為止。」所以當打擊來臨時，傷害的原因已經不復存在；此時一件完全不同的事情就會發生。這就是我想說明的。
Explorations and Insights, 'The Factors of Deterioration'
《探索與洞察》之「退化的因素」
為滿足部分朋友對探討的持續性和深入性的要求，同時參考克本人關於「致力於教誨的核心群體」的表述，我們現正式招募成立「冥思坊北京核心學習圈」，發送「核心圈」三個字即可收到招募啟事。
冥思坊從2013年9月開始在北京組織常規的小型討論會和讀書會，發送「活動」兩個字即可收到最新的活動安排。
如果您是剛剛接觸到克裡希那穆提，可以發送「克」給我們，您將收到我們整理的關於克裡希那穆提生平和教誨的一個簡要介紹。發送「目錄」，您將收到我們過往群發的部分圖文消息的目錄。另外，發送「關鍵詞」，您將會接收到一個關於關鍵詞自動回復功能的說明。
感謝您關注「克裡希那穆提冥思坊」（微信號：Krishnamurti_KMS）。如果您喜歡本文，請隨手轉發給朋友或分享到朋友圈。