We see with the eyes, but we see with the brain as well. And seeing with the brain is often called imagination.
我們用眼睛看世界，但我們也用大腦看。用大腦來看，也就是我們常說的想像。
And we are familiar with the landscapes of our own imagination, our inscapes. We've lived with them all our lives.
我們很熟悉自己想像的模式，也就是內心世界，它伴隨我們一生。
But there are also hallucinations as well, and hallucinations are completely different.
然而想像之外還有幻覺，幻覺跟想像截然不同。
They don't seem to be of our creation. They don't seem to be under our control. They seem to come from the outside, and to mimic perception.
它似乎不是我們所創造的，好像也不受我們的控制，它似乎源自外界，又偽裝成我們自己的感知。
So I am going to be talking about hallucinations, and a particular sort of visual hallucination which I see among my patients.
所以我將就幻覺做一些解釋，也會提到我在病人身上觀察到的一種特殊的視覺幻覺。
A few months ago, I got a phone call from a nursing home where I work.
幾個月前我接到從我工作的養老院打來的一個電話。
They told me that one of their residents, an old lady in her 90s, was seeing things,
他們告訴我住客中有一位90多的老太太「看到了一些東西」。
and they wondered if she'd gone bonkers or, because she was an old lady, whether she'd had a stroke, or whether she had Alzheimer's.
他們懷疑她是不是瘋了，或者因為年紀大得了中風，或是老年痴呆症。
And so they asked me if I would come and see Rosalie, the old lady. I went in to see her.
所以他們請我去看看羅薩莉，也就是那個老太太。
It was evident straight away that she was perfectly sane and lucid and of good intelligence,
我去了後，馬上就發現她不僅完全神志正常，還非常清醒、明智。
but she'd been very startled and very bewildered, because she'd been seeing things.
就是有點嚇壞了，還有點奇怪，為什麼她會出現幻視。
And she told me -- the nurses hadn't mentioned this -- that she was blind, that she had been completely blind from macular degeneration for five years.
她還說，護士忘了告訴我，她眼睛是看不見的，她五年前就因為視網膜黃斑退化而完全失明了。
But now, for the last few days, she'd been seeing things.
近幾天卻看到了幻象。
So I said, "What sort of things?" And she said, "People in Eastern dress, in drapes, walking up and down stairs.
我問：「什麼樣的幻象？」她說：「許多人穿著東方服飾，那種長袍式的，在樓梯上上下下。
A man who turns towards me and smiles. But he has huge teeth on one side of his mouth. Animals too.
一個男的轉過來對我笑，但他的嘴巴只有一邊長著牙，很大的牙，還有很多動物。
I see a white building. It's snowing, a soft snow. I see this horse with a harness, dragging the snow away.
有一棟白色的樓，天在下雪，小雪，我還看到一匹戴著挽具的馬不斷把雪拖走。
Then, one night, the scene changes. I see cats and dogs walking towards me. They come to a certain point and then stop.
然後有一天晚上，幻象變了，變成好多貓和狗朝我這邊走，走著走著就停了。
Then it changes again. I see a lot of children. They are walking up and down stairs. They wear bright colors, rose and blue, like Eastern dress."
然後又變了，這回我看到很多小朋友在樓梯上爬上爬下，他們穿著顏色鮮豔的衣服，有玫瑰色，有藍色，就像東方服飾。」
Sometimes, she said, before the people come on, she may hallucinate pink and blue squares on the floor, which seem to go up to the ceiling.
她說，有時候在她看到人之前，她還能看到地板上粉色和藍色的方塊跑到天花板上。
I said, "Is this like a dream?" And she said, "No, it's not like a dream. It's like a movie." She said, "It's got color. It's got motion.
我問：「像不像做夢？」她說：「不，不像夢。像個電影。」「它是有顏色的，還有動作。
But it's completely silent, like a silent movie." And she said that it's a rather boring movie.
不過一點聲音都沒有，像默片。」她還說那電影相當無聊。
She said, "All these people with Eastern dress, walking up and down, very repetitive, very limited."
她說：「所有人都穿著東方衣服，爬上爬下，不停地，一點別的花樣都沒有。」
And she has a sense of humor. She knew it was a hallucination. But she was frightened. She'd lived 95 years and she'd never had a hallucination before.
她很幽默，而且知道那是個幻覺，但她有點害怕，因為她活了95年，從來沒有出現過幻覺。
She said that the hallucinations were unrelated to anything she was thinking or feeling or doing, that they seemed to come on by themselves, or disappear.
她說那些幻覺跟她的意識和行為一點都不相干，總是這麼無緣無故地出現，又無緣無故地消失。
She had no control over them. She said she didn't recognize any of the people or places in the hallucinations.
完全不受她控制，而幻覺中出現的人和地點，她一個都不認識。
And none of the people or the animals, well, they all seemed oblivious of her.
裡面的人和動物也好像看不見她。
And she didn't know what was going on. She wondered if she was going mad or losing her mind.
她不知道這是這麼了，她想，她是瘋了，還是在失去理智。
Well, I examined her carefully. She was a bright old lady, perfectly sane. She had no medical problems.
於是我為這個活潑的老太太做了詳盡的檢查，結果發現她的神智完全正常，沒有精神問題。
She wasn't on any medications which could produce hallucinations. But she was blind.
她所吃的藥也都沒有致幻的副作用，不過，她是盲的。
And I then said to her, "I think I know what you have." I said, "There is a special form of visual hallucination which may go with deteriorating vision or blindness.
所以我說：「我想我知道你的問題是什麼了。有一種特殊的視覺幻覺會發生在視力受損或完全失明的人身上。
This was originally described," I said, "right back in the 18th century, by a man called Charles Bonnet.
這種現象最早在18世紀被一個叫查爾斯·邦納的人描述過。
And you have Charles Bonnet syndrome. There is nothing wrong with your brain. There is nothing wrong with your mind. You have Charles Bonnet syndrome."
你得的就是邦納症候群(Charles Bonnet syndrome)群。問題既不在你的大腦，也不在你的意識，你只是得了這種邦納症候。」
And she was very relieved at this, that there was nothing seriously the matter, and also rather curious.
她大鬆一口氣，還好不是什麼重病，完了還相當好奇。
She said, "Who is this Charles Bonnet?" She said, "Did he have them himself?"
她問：「這個查爾斯，他也有這種幻覺嗎？」
And she said, "Tell all the nurses that I have Charles Bonnet syndrome."
還有，「告訴那些護工，我只不過是得了邦納症候群。」
"I'm not crazy. I'm not demented. I have Charles Bonnet syndrome." Well, so I did tell the nurses.
「我沒瘋，也沒傻，我只是得了邦納症候群。」於是我照她的意思告訴了護工們。
Now this, for me, is a common situation. I work in old-age homes, largely.
其實這種現象對我來說並不稀奇，我在養老院工作。
I see a lot of elderly people who are hearing impaired or visually impaired.
認識很多老人是聽力或視力受損的。
About 10 percent of the hearing impaired people get musical hallucinations.
10%的聽力受損者有聽覺幻覺。
And about 10 percent of the visually impaired people get visual hallucinations.
10%的視力受損者有視覺幻覺。
You don't have to be completely blind, only sufficiently impaired.
不一定要完全失明或完全聽不到，才會有這種幻覺。
Now with the original description in the 18th century, Charles Bonnet did not have them.
18世紀的查爾斯·邦納，其實並沒有這種症狀。
His grandfather had these hallucinations. His grandfather was a magistrate, an elderly man.
產生幻覺的是他的祖父，一位年長的長官。
He'd had cataract surgery. His vision was pretty poor. And in 1759, he described to his grandson various things he was seeing.
這個長官曾接受過白內障手術，視力不大好，1759年，他向孫子描述了他看到的各種各樣的幻象。
The first thing he said was he saw a handkerchief in midair. It was a large blue handkerchief with four orange circles.
第一個幻象是一塊懸浮在空中的手帕，大大的，藍色的，還有四個橙色的圓圈。
And he knew it was a hallucination. You don't have handkerchiefs in midair. And then he saw a big wheel in midair.
他知道這是個幻覺，因為手帕不會浮在半空，他還看到過一個大輪子浮在空中。
But sometimes he wasn't sure whether he was hallucinating or not, because the hallucinations would fit in the context of the visions.
不過有時候他也搞不清楚看到的到底是不是幻覺，因為這些幻覺會融合在現實的背景裡。
So on one occasion, when his granddaughters were visiting them, he said, "And who are these handsome young men with you?"
有一次，當他的孫女們來探望他時，他又看到了幻覺，他問：「這幾個跟你們在一起的帥小夥子是誰啊？」
And they said, "Alas, Grandpapa, there are no handsome young men." And then the handsome young men disappeared.
孫女們卻說：「誒，爺爺，沒有你說的帥小夥啊。」突然間帥小夥們就消失了。
It's typical of these hallucinations that they may come in a flash and disappear in a flash.
這是一種典型的幻覺，刷一下來，刷一下去。
They don't usually fade in and out. They are rather sudden, and they change suddenly.
沒有漸變，相當突然，變得也快。
Charles Lullin, the grandfather, saw hundreds of different figures, different landscapes of all sorts.
查爾斯·魯林，也就是那個祖父，看到過幾百個不同的人像，還有各種各樣的景色。
On one occasion, he saw a man in a bathrobe smoking a pipe, and realized it was himself.
有一次，他看到一個穿浴袍的男人在抽菸鬥，然後意識到，那就是他自己。
That was the only figure he recognized. On one occasion when he was walking in the streets of Paris, he saw -- this was real -- a scaffolding.
那是唯一一個他辨認出來的人像，還有一次，他在巴黎的街道上當真看到了一個腳手架。
But when he got back home, he saw a miniature of the scaffolding six inches high, on his study table.
回到家後，卻看到了那個腳手架的迷你版，六英尺高，就立在他的書桌上。
This repetition of perception is sometimes called palinopsia.
這種感知的重複 有時會被稱作視像保留。
With him and with Rosalie, what seems to be going on -- and Rosalie said, "What's going on?" --
這種在查爾斯·魯林和羅斯莉身上發生的讓羅斯莉問道「我這是這麼了？」的現象
and I said that as you lose vision, as the visual parts of the brain are no longer getting any input, they become hyperactive and excitable, and they start to fire spontaneously.
我這麼解釋吧：隨著視力的減退，大腦與視力相關的部分漸漸失去了信息輸入，從而進入一種過度活躍的、待激活的狀態，於是它開始自發地活動。
And you start to see things. The things you see can be very complicated indeed.
讓人產生幻象，產生的幻象可以相當複雜。
With another patient of mine, who, also had some vision, the vision she had could be disturbing.
我有一個病人（像查爾斯·魯林一樣）視力沒有完全減退，她看到的幻象比較惱人。
On one occasion, she said she saw a man in a striped shirt in a restaurant. And he turned around.
她說有一次她看到，餐館裡有一個穿條紋恤衫的男人，他轉過身，
And then he divided into six figures in striped shirts, who started walking towards her.
然後就突然分裂成6個同樣穿條紋恤衫的人像，開始朝她走來，
And then the six figures came together again, like a concertina.
然後六個人就合了起來，就像手風琴一樣。
Once, when she was driving, or rather, her husband was driving, the road divided into four and she felt herself going simultaneously up four roads.
有一次她正在開車，應該說，是他丈夫在開，路突然就分裂成了4條，她感覺就像同時在4條路上行駛。
She had very mobile hallucinations as well. A lot of them had to do with a car. Sometimes she would see a teenage boy sitting on the hood of the car.
她的幻覺充滿動感，往往會牽涉到車，有時她會看到一個青年男孩坐在引擎蓋上。
He was very tenacious and he moved rather gracefully when the car turned.
他緊抓著不放，車轉彎時，他便隨著車的動作緩緩傾斜。
And then when they came to a stop, the boy would do a sudden vertical takeoff, 100 foot in the air, and then disappear.
車停下後，男孩便會突然垂直飛到100尺的高空，然後消失。
Another patient of mine had a different sort of hallucination. This was a woman who didn't have trouble with her eyes,
還有一個病人，有另外一種幻覺，這位女病人視力並無問題。
but the visual parts of her brain, a little tumor in the occipital cortex.
問題出在她腦部的視覺部分，她的枕葉皮層有一個小腫瘤。
And, above all, she would see cartoons. These cartoons would be transparent and would cover half the visual field, like a screen.
尤其引人注意的是，她看到的幻象是卡通的，而且是半透明的，像屏幕一樣蓋住半個視野。
And especially she saw cartoons of Kermit the Frog. Now, I don't watch Sesame Street, but she made a point of saying, "Why Kermit?"
特別的是，她看到的是青蛙柯密特（芝麻街人物）我不看芝麻街的，不過她堅持要問我：「為什麼是柯密特？」
she said, "Kermit the Frog means nothing to me. You know, I was wondering about Freudian determinants. Why Kermit? Kermit the Frog means nothing to me."
她說，「青蛙柯密特對我來說一點意義都沒有啊。」當時我正在研究弗洛伊德決定因素，為什麼是柯密特？「青蛙柯密特對我來說一點意義都沒有啊。」
She didn't mind the cartoons too much. But what did disturb her was she got very persistent images or hallucinations of faces and as with Rosalie,
她並不大關注那部卡通，讓她非常苦惱的是，這些幻覺持續地出現，而且跟羅斯莉的情況一樣，
the faces were often deformed, with very large teeth or very large eyes. And these frightened her.
幻覺中的臉往往是扭曲的，要麼長著大牙，要麼長著大眼，這讓她感到非常不安。
Well, what is going on with these people? As a physician, I have to try and define what's going on, and to reassure people, especially to reassure them that they're not going insane.
那麼，這些病人是怎麼了？作為一個醫生，我必須嘗試闡釋這些現象來安撫他們，尤其得告訴他們，他們沒瘋。
Something like 10 percent, as I said, of visually impaired people get these.
我前面提到過，視力受損的人有10%會產生幻覺。
But no more than one percent of the people acknowledge them, because they are afraid they will be seen as insane or something.
但不超過1%會承認，因為他們擔心會被當成瘋子之類。
And if they do mention them to their own doctors they may be misdiagnosed.
而如果他們向醫生提起這種症狀，醫生可能會做出錯誤的診斷。
In particular, the notion is that if you see things or hear things, you're going mad, but the psychotic hallucinations are quite different.
而且，大家往往認為，如果你看到或聽到幻覺，你就是瘋了，其實我們提到的這種幻覺跟精神病幻覺是不一樣的。
Psychotic hallucinations, whether they are visual or vocal, they address you.
精神病的幻覺，不管是視覺的還是聽覺的都對付你，
They accuse you. They seduce you. They humiliate you. They jeer at you. You interact with them.
指控你，誘惑你，羞辱你，嘲弄你，跟你互動。
There is none of this quality of being addressed with these Charles Bonnet hallucinations.
而這些都沒有出現在邦納式的幻覺中。
There is a film. You're seeing a film which has nothing to do with you, or that's how people think about it.
邦納式幻覺就像一部電影，儘管你在看，電影卻沒有牽涉到你，反正患者們是這麼認為的。
There is also a rare thing called temporal lobe epilepsy, and sometimes, if one has this, one may feel oneself transported back to a time and place in the past.
還有一種少有的症狀叫顳葉癲癇，有時，如果一個人產生這種症狀，他可能會感到自己被帶回到過去的一個時空。
You're at a particular road junction. You smell chestnuts roasting. You hear the traffic. All the senses are involved.
在某一個路口，聞到烤慄子的香味，聽到車來車往，所有的感官都參與著。
And you're waiting for your girl. And it's that Tuesday evening back in 1982.
等待著心上人，那可能是1982年的某個周二夜晚。
And the temporal lobe hallucinations are all-sense hallucinations, full of feeling, full of familiarity, located in space and time, coherent, dramatic.
這種顳葉異常導致的幻覺是多感官的，充滿著情緒和熟悉感，發生在特定時空中，情節合乎邏輯而戲劇感十足。
The Charles Bonnet ones are quite different.
邦納式的則很不一樣。
So in the Charles Bonnet hallucinations, you have all sorts of levels, from the geometrical hallucinations --
在邦納式幻覺中，有好幾種等級，從幾何幻覺，
the pink and blue squares the woman had -- up to quite elaborate hallucinations with figures and especially faces.
比如老太太看到的粉色和藍色的方塊，到非常複雜的幻覺，比如各種人像，尤其是面容，
Faces, and sometimes deformed faces, are the single commonest thing in these hallucinations. And one of the second commonest is cartoons.
這些面容，有時是扭曲的面容，是唯一一種在這些幻覺中最常見的幻象，一種第二常見的幻象是卡通。
So, what is going on? Fascinatingly, in the last few years, it's been possible to do functional brain imagery, to do fMRI on people as they are hallucinating.
那麼，究竟為什麼會產生幻覺呢？很棒的是，近幾年我們能夠做出腦功能成像。
And in fact, to find that different parts of the visual brain are activated as they are hallucinating.
當我們給正產生幻覺的人做功能性磁共振成像(fMRI)時，我們的確發現大腦視覺部位有不同區域被激活，這時被檢測者正在經歷幻覺。
When people have these simple geometrical hallucinations, the primary visual cortex is activated.
如果被檢測者有的是簡單的幾何幻覺，被激活的區域則是初級視覺皮質。
This is the part of the brain which perceives edges and patterns. You don't form images with your primary visual cortex.
這是大腦感知邊緣和圖案的部分，而我們光靠這裡是無法形成完整影像的。
When images are formed, a higher part of the visual cortex is involved in the temporal lobe.
影像形成時，一個位於顳葉的較高級視覺皮質會有一定活動。
And in particular, one area of the temporal lobe is called the fusiform gyrus.
尤其是顳葉中叫做梭狀回的一個區域，顯著地活躍。
And it's known that if people have damage in the fusiform gyrus, they maybe lose the ability to recognize faces.
調查顯示，如果梭狀回損傷，患者可能因此無法辨認面容。
But if there is an abnormal activity in the fusiform gyrus, they may hallucinate faces, and this is exactly what you find in some of these people.
而當梭狀回異常時，患者則可能看到面容的幻象，這正是我們前面提到的幾位病人所出現的症狀。
There is an area in the anterior part of this gyrus where teeth and eyes are represented, and that part of the gyrus is activated when people get the deformed hallucinations.
梭狀回的前部有一個區域負責處理有關牙齒和眼睛的影像，而當病人出現扭曲的幻覺時，正是這一部位出現了活動。
There is another part of the brain which is especially activated when one sees cartoons.
還有一個區域會在病人看到卡通幻象時出現活動。
It's activated when one recognizes cartoons, when one draws cartoons, and when one hallucinates them. It's very interesting that that should be specific.
人們觀看卡通，畫卡通，或看到卡通幻象時，都是這一部位被激活，這是一個特別有趣的現象。
There are other parts of the brain which are specifically involved with the recognition and hallucination of buildings and landscapes.
大腦還有幾個別的部位，相應地跟其他視覺元素的辨別與幻覺有關，比如樓房和風景。
Around 1970, it was found that there were not only parts of the brain, but particular cells.
1970年左右，人們發現特化的不是一塊區域，而是相應的腦細胞。
"Face cells" were discovered around 1970. And now we know that there are hundreds of other sorts of cells, which can be very, very specific.
「臉細胞」是1970年左右發現的，至今，我們已經發現了數百種與各類視覺元素對應的腦細胞，這種對應關係可以非常瑣細、明確。
So you may not only have "car" cells, you may have "Aston Martin" cells.
比如說 「車」細胞可能還有「阿斯頓·馬丁(一種車)」細胞。
I saw an Aston Martin this morning. I had to bring it in. And now it's in there somewhere.
今早我看到一輛阿斯頓·馬丁，我一直想提提它，現在我的腦子裡就有這種「阿斯頓·馬丁」細胞 。
Now, at this level, in what's called the inferotemporal cortex, there are only visual images, or figments or fragments.
那麼，這一程度的幻覺，只會由這一整塊可以稱作下顳葉皮質的區域形成視覺影像、幻象，或片段。
It's only at higher levels that the other senses join in and there are connections with memory and emotion.
只有更高程度的幻覺才會有視覺以外的感官參與，同時牽涉到記憶與情感。
And in the Charles Bonnet syndrome, you don't go to those higher levels.
在邦納症候群中，更高程度的幻覺並不會出現。
You're in these levels of inferior visual cortex where you have thousands and tens of thousands and millions of images,
牽涉到初級視覺皮質的幻覺有上百上千，甚至更多的圖像、幻象，
or figments, or fragmentary figments, all neurally encoded in particular cells or small clusters of cells.
或殘缺幻象，這些都被編譯在特定的腦細胞或腦細胞簇中。
Normally these are all part of the integrated stream of perception, or imagination, and one is not conscious of them.
這些細胞通常參與形成感知和想像，人們通常是無法意識到這一過程的。
It is only if one is visually impaired or blind that the process is interrupted.
只有當你的視力受損或喪失，這一過程才會被幹擾。
And instead of getting normal perception, you're getting an anarchic, convulsive stimulation, or release, of all of these visual cells in the inferotemporal cortex.
在這種情況下，你的感知不再正常，一種不受控的、痙攣的釋放活動，發生在位於初級視覺皮質的這些視覺腦細胞中，這種活動的結果就是，
So, suddenly you see a face. Suddenly you see a car. Suddenly this, and suddenly that.
你突然看到一張臉，轉瞬看到一輛車，突然這，突然那。
The mind does its best to organize and to give some sort of coherence to this, but not terribly successfully.
大腦會嘗試控制場面，嘗試使這一切符合邏輯，但不會很成功。
When these were first described, it was thought that they could be interpreted like dreams.
這些現象最初被描述時，人們相信，跟夢一樣，這種幻覺也能被強行中止。
But in fact people say, "I don't recognize the people. I can't form any associations."
不過實際上患者表示 「我認不出來誰是誰。完全沒辦法想到任何信息。」
"Kermit means nothing to me." You don't get anywhere thinking of them as dreams.
「青蛙柯密特對我來說一點意義都沒有啊。」 把這種現象視作夢的一種是行不通的。
Well, I've more or less said what I wanted. I think I just want to recapitulate and say this is common.
唔，我應該說得差不多了，我再概括一下，其實幫納症候群是個常見現象。
Think of the number of blind people. There must be hundreds of thousands of blind people who have these hallucinations, but are too scared to mention them.
你們想，在盲人人群中，肯定有上百上千有這樣的幻覺，然而卻不敢提起。
So this sort of thing needs to be brought into notice, for patients, for doctors, for the public.
所以不管是病人，醫生還是公眾，都有必要認識到這一現象的常見性。
Finally, I think they are infinitely interesting and valuable, for giving one some insight as to how the brain works.
最後，我發現幫助別人認識大腦作用的原理是一件無比有趣而有意義的事情。
Charles Bonnet said, 250 years ago -- he wondered how, thinking these hallucinations, how, as he put it, the theater of the mind could be generated by the machinery of the brain.
查爾斯·邦納在250年前在對這些幻覺現象的觀察的促使下，思考了這個問題，心智的戲劇性是如何產生於大腦運作的呢？
Now, 250 years later, I think we're beginning to glimpse how this is done. Thanks very much.
250年後的今天，我想我們已經能夠開始領悟這個精妙的過程，非常感謝。
Chris Anderson: That was superb. Thank you so much. You speak about these things with so much insight and empathy for your patients.
克裡斯·安德森：非常精彩，非常感謝你，你說得非常精到，也很能理解你的病人。
Have you yourself experienced any of the syndromes you write about?
你自己有沒有過這些症狀呢？
Oliver Sacks: I was afraid you'd ask that. Well, yeah, a lot of them.
奧利弗·薩克斯：我挺怕你問這個的，嗯，有，很大一部分。
And actually I'm a little visually impaired myself. I'm blind in one eye, and not terribly good in the other.
事實上我自己也有一定的視力受損，我的一隻眼睛是看不到的，另一隻視力也不大好。
And I see the geometrical hallucinations. But they stop there.
我看到過幾何幻覺，不過最多也就這個程度了。
CA: And they don't disturb you? Because you understand what's doing it, it doesn't make you worried?
安德森：它們會不會讓你感到很不安？或者說是不是因為你了解這一現象而沒這麼擔心？
OS: Well they don't disturb me any more than my tinnitus, which I ignore.
薩克斯：耳鳴讓我煩心得多，耳鳴我也是聽而不聞。
They occasionally interest me, and I have many pictures of them in my notebooks.
不過偶爾我會對自己的幻覺很感興趣，我還把它們畫在了筆記本裡。
I've gone and had an fMRI myself, to see how my visual cortex is taking over.
我自己就曾做過功能性磁共振成像，看看我的視覺皮層在造什麼反。
And when I see all these hexagons and complex things, which I also have, in visual migraine, I wonder whether everyone sees things like this,
我看到六邊形的幻覺，或更複雜的幻覺，往往伴隨著偏頭痛，那是我就會想是不是別人也會有這樣的幻覺。
and whether things like cave art or ornamental art may have been derived from them a bit.
洞穴壁畫和裝飾藝術是不是也取材於這種幻覺。
CA: That was an utterly, utterly fascinating talk. Thank you so much for sharing.
安德森：你今天的演講非常非常精彩，感謝你的分享。
OS: Thank you. Thank you.
薩克斯：謝謝，謝謝。