Zhu Xiao Mei: When I play Bach
I would never stop, I always keep going
朱曉玫訪談:永無止息地演奏巴赫
By Nicola Catto
1949年,朱曉玫出生在上海。她音樂學習的起步時間比較早,8歲時就在北京的電臺演奏鋼琴。兩年後,她進入中央音樂學院附中學習。文化大革命中斷了她的學習,那段時間裡,她在張家口進行了五年的勞動鍛鍊。1979年,她離開中國,到美國波士頓的新英格蘭音樂學院學習,並在1985年獲得了鋼琴表演碩士學位。同年,她移居到巴黎。於1994年舉辦了她在巴黎的首場音樂會。她一邊在巴黎音樂學院教學,一邊到世界各地舉辦音樂會,歐洲、俄羅斯、南美洲、澳大利亞都遍布著她的演奏足跡。她還出版了自傳《河流與她的秘密》。
Chinese pianist Zhu Xiao Mei* won an ICMA Special Award 2015 with her Bach recordings for Accentus Music**. ICMA Jury member Nicola Catto has made the following interview with her.
2015年,中國鋼琴家朱曉枚獲得了國際數位音樂聯合會頒發的一個特殊獎項,這個獎項的獲得是因為她為埃森哲音樂錄製的巴赫音樂專輯。為此,國際數位音樂聯合會的評審員尼古拉·卡託對她做了如下採訪:
I read in your autobiography that 「the search for a proper tempo is not confined to the world of music; one must seek it in life as well」. What does it mean?
我讀過您的自傳,其中您談到『演奏者不僅要在音樂的世界裡去尋求合適的彈奏速度,同時也必須在生活中去尋覓』。這句話是什麼意思呢?
The question is very intellectual, but I will answer in a simple way. It takes time to find the good tempo: if you play five years, you』ll find it. It is a very important matter, if you have a wrong tempo, people will not follow you. You must be neutral, and this pursue will always be a long one.
這是一個很聰慧的問題,我用一種簡單的方式來回答您。要想找到合適的彈奏速度是需要經過長時間練習的。如果你能夠把一首曲子彈五年,你就會找到它。這是件很重要的事,如果彈奏的速度不合適,聽眾就不會與你同步。因此,對它的把握必須不偏不倚,恰到好處,而要達到這個目標則需要經歷一條漫長的路。
But how this idea affect your way of playing? Once you have found the right tempo, the right colours, the right phrasing, every night, every concert is the same?
但是,這種觀點是如何影響您的演奏方式的呢?一旦您找到合適的速度、音色、樂句,它們都不會再改變了嗎?在每次彈奏練習中或在不同的音樂會中,它們都是一樣的嗎?
Not really, there is not black or white, the truth lies somewhere in-between. It depends on the environment, on the concert hall: if it’s small, it’s easier to communicate with the public. However, changes are not that big.
不是這樣的,不是非黑即白,真實的狀態處於二者之間。它取決於演奏環境,例如:在音樂廳演奏,如果空間是小的,與觀眾交流起來就容易一些。然而,即使有所改變,變化也不會太大。
So, the audience it’s important to you…
這麼說,觀眾對您而言是很重要的。
Very important! Many colleagues will not agree, and they will say, 「I play what I feel」. But if you don’t play for the audience, then it’s better if you stay home! I need the audience to help me…
非常重要!許多同行並不認同這一點。他們說,我彈奏我自己感受到的。但是,如果你不為觀眾演奏,那待在家裡自己彈比較好!我需要觀眾來幫助我。
And also teaching is an important way of having a relationship with people!
教學是與大家建立聯繫的一種重要的方式。
I think so: we practice on our own every day, but we must learn to persuade the people. Many musicians play beautifully, but without feeling: it doesn’t 『pass』 and people get tired, bored…
我也這樣認為。我們只是每天在家自己練習,但是我們也必須學會引導聽眾。許多音樂家演奏得很好,但是缺乏感情。這樣的演奏不能夠把情感傳遞給聽眾,因此,大家會感覺疲憊、厭煩……
Your career – but I guess you prefer the expression 『musical life』 – is mainly focused on Bach: why?
您的音樂生涯的關注點主要在『巴赫』的作品上,為什麼呢?
Sometimes we cannot explain. When I studied at the Conservatory, I played 5 or 6 hours a day, until I was exhausted, but the last piece was always a Bach one, because it gave me more energy. Also in the concentration camps, I felt I had to play Bach to stay alive and to keep my dignity, my humanity; and I when I play Bach I would never stop, I always keep going.
這有時無法解釋。我還在音樂學院學習的時候,每天練琴5-6個小時,直到筋疲力盡為止。但是,我彈奏的最後一個作品往往都是巴赫,因為它會給予我更多的能量。即使是在勞動營鍛鍊的時候,我仍然去彈奏巴赫,因為我覺得只有這樣,才能讓自己繼續活下去,才能維護住自己的人格與尊嚴。每當我彈奏『巴赫』的時候,我都停不下來,而且,我將一直彈下去……
Another sentence I found in your book: 「The stiff and unbending is the disciple of death; the gentle and yielding is the disciple of life」. How much freedom do you take when you study a composition and when you play it in front of a public? Is the former the 『stiff』 p eriod and the latter the 『yielding』 one?
在您的書裡還有這樣一句話:「堅強者死之徒,柔弱者生之徒」。 當您在研習一部作品或在公眾面前演奏時,會偏屬於哪一種個性呢?是前者的剛強?還是後者的柔弱?
It’s not my sentence, it’s a sentence by Laozi, the most important Chinese philosopher: when I came out of China I did not know anything about him, he was not in Mao’s red book! I never practice a new piece less than six month, but for big ones I need at least five years: maybe I am not very talented, but I must work on it a lot. That has happened, for example, with the Goldberg Variations and The Art of Fugue.
這句話源自中國最著名的哲學家老子(譯者註:《道德經》76章)。我離開中國的時候,對他一無所知,因為《毛澤東語錄》中沒有這方面的內容。每一部新的作品,我都至少要練習6個月,要是長一些的作品,至少會練習5年。或許我不夠聰慧,需要更多的練習。於是,我的《哥德堡變奏曲》與《賦格的藝術》就誕生了。
Don’t you think that The Art of Fugue is not 『real music』, but a theoretical demonstration?
您是否會覺得《賦格的藝術》不是真正的音樂?只是理論式的呈現?
I agree, and for a long time I did not want to touch it, I did not understand it; but when I studied it, I realized that, once, time is the keyword. You must be generous with lifetime, and slowly, with meditation and spirituality, it will grow inside you: so I got very touched, I had a feeling, which must still develop. I played it in public only five times, and I still have a long way to go to convince the people.
我同意這個觀點。在很長的一段時間裡,我不敢去觸碰這部作品,因為我不理解它。但當我開始研習它的時候,我意識到:時間是最好的鑰匙。當你付出大量的時間去練習的時候,作品的思想與內涵就會慢慢地在你的內心裡生根發芽。我非常感動,我有一種感覺,它一定還會繼續不斷的發展下去。這部作品我在公眾場合中只演奏過五次,但要使大家理解這部作品,對我而言,還有很長的路要走。
The fact that it’s an unfinished composition is somehow fascinating or a problem?
事實上,這是一部沒有完成的作品。是不是正因為如此,它才更迷人呢?或者更需要人們去解惑呢?
It’s wonderful that it is not finished: it reminds me to Chinese philosophy, where nothing is finished. Maybe Bach did it on purpose: at the beginning of the last fugue, we feel something special, as he did not want to finish it. In this sense, I always say, laughing: 「Bach is Buddhist」! That’s why Chinese people love so much him: he is for all religions, all nationalities.
作品沒有完成才更好啊!它讓我想起中國的一句哲語,即永無止境。也許巴赫有意而為之:在最後一首賦格的起始部分,我有一種特殊的感覺:他並不想完成這部作品。從這個意義上講,我經常開玩笑地說:巴赫是佛!這就是為什麼中國人那麼喜愛巴赫的原因。他屬於不同的宗教,他屬於全人類!
Which musical ideas do you want to develop in next years?
對於今後幾年的發展,您有哪些想法呢?
I would like to play Bach, especially the Goldberg, in as much countries as possible (now I count 25), to every kind of people, from businesspersons to pensioners and prisoners, people of every religion. And, of course, I』d like to play more Bach in China: I was there last here and it was wonderful. Many people had come for the very first time to a concert, but the stayed silent for the whole time and, at the end, we sold 300 recordings of The Art of Fugue! The record company told me that it had never happened!
我想要到儘可能多的國家(現在計劃有25個國家了)裡去演奏巴赫的作品,尤其是《哥德堡變奏曲》。我想要給不同的人群演奏:商人、無業人員、罪犯以及從屬不同宗教的人們。當然,我願意在中國演奏得更多一些,上一次回國演奏的經歷是非常棒的:許多人都是第一次來到音樂廳,但是整場音樂會他們都很安靜。最後,我們還售賣了300張《賦格的藝術》專輯!錄音公司告訴我,這樣的事情從來就沒有發生過。
In which sense do you feel close to Schubert?
哪一種感覺更接近舒伯特?
Just the plain word makes arise emotions. Very few composers have attained that level. His music is plain, it isn’t at all artificial, we have to clean up ourselves in order to play it.
只有『樸素』這個詞才能抵達他那情感的高度,能達到這種水平的作曲家非常稀少。他的音樂是樸素的,沒有一點兒人為的痕跡。為了把它彈奏好,演奏者必須清空自我。
How do you see the development of classical music teaching in China?
您怎樣看待古典音樂教學在中國的發展?
It’s a wonderful, there are so many people playing the piano but, meanwhile, there’s still much to do: normally they only look for a proper technique, they want to play loud, fast! We had a competition with my classmates, to see who was faster in playing octaves: but that is not important, we must touch people.
特別好!有很多人在學習鋼琴。當然,這其中還存在一些問題,仍然有很多事情需要去做。例如:通常情況下,他們只尋求一些彈奏技巧;他們想把聲音彈得大一些、快一些。那種感覺就像:我想要與同學比賽,看看誰的八度彈得更快。但是那並不重要,重要的是:我們的音樂要讓大家的內心有所觸動。
So, what’s your opinion about your famous fellow countrymen like Lang Lang, Yundi, Yuja Wang?
您怎樣看待國內著名的青年鋼琴家的演奏呢?如:朗朗、李雲迪、王羽佳?
Yes, their facility is extraordinary, even if now they seem to be focused mainly on virtuosity: but, who knows, maybe when they』ll grow older they will get tired of this!
是的,他們的演奏能力是驚人的。即使是到了現在,他們的專注點主要還是在追求精湛的技術上。但是,也許等他們年紀大一些的時候,或許會對這樣的追求感到厭煩吧?誰知道呢?
If you had met Bach, what had you said to him?
如果您遇到了巴赫,會對他說些什麼?
First, I would explain him what China is and where it is! (laughs) Then, I would tell him how much Chinese people love his music, how deeply he has helped us to survive in difficult times. Then I would ask him if he likes how I play his music!
首先,我會對他解釋中國是什麼,中國在哪裡(大笑)。然後,我會告訴他,中國人是多麼喜歡他的音樂;在困難時期,是他的音樂讓我們有勇氣繼續存活下去;最後,我還會問他,是否滿意我對其作品的演繹方式?
If you were allowed to save just one work of your repertoire, which one would you choose?
如果在節目單中只能保留一首作品,您會選擇哪個?
Well, that is a difficult question! I could say the Winterreise by Schubert, but I cannot forget either the Goldberg Variations, that saved me 30 years ago and now are a part of myself. Nevertheless, I』d hate having to leave Mozart, or Beethoven out! I would cry but… yes, I would definitely choose the Goldberg!
噢,這是個很難回答的問題!也許是舒伯特的《冬之旅》,但是我不能忘記任何一首《哥德堡變奏曲》,30年前它挽救了我,現在,它已經成為我生命的一部分了。然而,我也離不開莫扎特和貝多芬!噢!我快要哭了,但是……我還是很明確,我會選擇《哥德堡變奏曲》。
During your musical life, you played hundreds of concert: do you remember one being the most memorable, or successful one?
在您的音樂生涯中,已經舉辦了幾百次的音樂會。您還記得哪一場是最難忘的嗎?或者說是最成功的嗎?
That is a good question, maybe I had a very special feeling (and the silence was special) just 3 times: the most particular took place in a church, in France, where I felt a special connection between praying and playing.
這是個很好的問題。大概有3次,在那3次演奏中我都體驗到了很特別的感覺。最特別的一次發生在法國的一個教堂裡,在那裡,我感受到了我的內心與我的演奏被一種很特別的感覺連接著。
What do you regret most?
您最遺憾的是什麼?
Not having played all the works by Bach: it is my dream, but I don’t think I have enough time. Another dream is opening a music school in China, playing there for people and teaching how to love music, to love Bach.
最遺憾的是,還沒有彈完巴赫的全部作品。彈完他的全部作品是我的夢想,但是我覺得自己沒有那麼多時間來完成。我還有一個夢想,是在中國辦一所音樂學校,在那裡為大家演奏,並教大家如何熱愛音樂熱愛巴赫。
If you could travel in the past or in the future, where would you set your 『time machine』?
如果讓您穿越到過去或者將來,您想停留在哪個階段?
Maybe 1980, when I got out of China and I learnt what freedom was, what the world had to offer. It was also a sad moment, because I never saw my family again.
也許是1980年。那個時候我離開了中國,我知道了什麼是自由,我知道了世界曾給予了我什麼。那也是個悲傷的時刻,因為從那時起,我再也沒能見到我的家人。
If music would not exist, what would you do in your life?
在您的生活中,如果沒有音樂的存在,您會做什麼?
I would be a painter: my mother was a painter, and painting moves me too. They have also an advantage: painters know what they’re showing to the people, pianists never know!
我會成為一名畫家。我的媽媽是個畫家,畫作也讓我感動。畫畫有一個好處:畫家知道她要展示給人們的是什麼,而鋼琴家卻從來都不知道。
Are you a happy person?
您很快樂嗎?
No, I’m a sad person; maybe not when I’m talking with people, but inside I’m rather dark. The only way of being happy, maybe, would be forgetting myself…
不,我不快樂。或許與別人聊天的時候不這樣,但是我的內心相當沉鬱。能夠讓我快樂的唯一方式,或許就是忘掉我自己……
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