In the early days of Twitter, it was like a place of radical de-shaming. People would admit shameful secrets about themselves, and other people would say, "Oh my God, I'm exactly the same." Voiceless people realized that they had a voice, and it was powerful and eloquent.
Twitter剛出不久時，像是個奇葩類的供洗恥的地方。人們會直諱一些羞於啟齒的秘密，其他人就會搭腔說，「天啊，我跟你一模一樣。」欲言無處訴的人意識到自己有話語權了，而且還能聲勢浩大、振振有詞。
If a newspaper ran some racist or homophobic column, we realized we could do something about it. We could get them. We could hit them with a weapon that we understood but they didn't -- a social media shaming.Advertisers would withdraw their advertising. When powerful people misused their privilege, we were going to get them. This was like the democratization of justice. Hierarchies were being leveled out. We were going to do things better.
遇到哪份報張發表了種族歧視或反同性戀的言論時，我們就知道可以採取行動了。我們能把他們揪出來。我們可以用炮轟他們，——用他們覺得陌生而我們得心應手的武器，叫社交媒體羞辱法。廣告商就會撤回廣告。遇到有權有勢之士濫用特權的時候，我們就可以把他們給揪出來。簡直就像司法的民主化。階層差異被推平了。很多事情我們都可以做得更好了。
Soon after that, a disgraced pop science writer called Jonah Lehrer -- he'd been caught plagiarizing and faking quotes,and he was drenched in shame and regret, he told me. And he had the opportunity to publicly apologize at a foundation lunch. This was going to be the most important speech of his life.
那之後不久，一位名叫喬納·雷爾的知名科學作家，做了件丟人的事——抄襲和捏造引據，並因之深陷羞辱和悔恨，他對我說，他得到一個機會可以在一次基金午餐會上公開道歉。那將會是他生命中最重要的一次講話的了。
Maybe it would win him some salvation. He knew before he arrived that the foundation was going to be live-streaming his event, but what he didn't know until he turned up, was that they'd erected a giant screen Twitter feed right next to his head. (Laughter) Another one in a monitor screen in his eye line.
可能會為他挽回一點顏面。出席之前他知道該基金會將要流媒體直播他的講話，但他沒有料到的是，到了會場之後，才發現現場豎起了一個巨大的推特螢屏，就挨他的頭旁邊。（笑聲）另一個電腦螢屏則在他的視線之內。
I don't think the foundation did this because they were monstrous. I think they were clueless: I think this was a unique moment when the beautiful naivety of Twitter was hitting the increasingly horrific reality.
該基金會的如此做法我不認為是出於豺狼之性，我認為他們是愚昧而已：以我之見，就在那特別一刻推特的美麗單純與現實的日益殘酷來了場正面碰撞。
And here were some of the Tweets that were cascading into his eye line, as he was trying to apologize:"Jonah Lehrer, boring us into forgiving him." (Laughter)
以下幾條是當時在現場出現的推文，當時他正準備道歉：「喬納·雷爾，想通過讓我們無聊的方式來原諒他。」（笑聲）
And, "Jonah Lehrer has not proven that he is capable of feeling shame."
「喬納·雷爾仍未證明自己是個會羞恥的人。」
That one must have been written by the best psychiatrist ever, to know that about such a tiny figure behind a lectern.
寫這條的人一定是史上最高明的精神醫生，遠遠看一眼講臺後的小小身影就能進行診斷
And, "Jonah Lehrer is just a frigging sociopath."
「喬納·雷爾個徹頭徹尾的變態狂。「
That last word is a very human thing to do,to dehumanize the people we hurt. It's because we want to destroy people but not feel bad about it. Imagine if this was an actual court, and the accused was in the dark, begging for another chance, and the jury was yelling out,"Bored! Sociopath!" (Laughter)
最後一個詞的使用是人性使然，是為了把我們要傷害的人非人化。因為我們想在毀滅別人的同時自己感覺不到痛苦。想像一下如果這是在法庭裡面，被告還蒙在鼓裡，乞求給予第二次機會，陪審員已經先聲奪人，」無聊啊！你個變態！「（笑聲）
You know, when we watch courtroom dramas,we tend to identify with the kindhearted defense attorney, but give us the power, and we become like hanging judges.
對吧，一般我們看法律劇的時候，總傾向於那個心地善良的辯方大律師，而一旦擁有了權力，我們就變成愛判死刑的法官了。
Power shifts fast. We were getting Jonah because he was perceived to have misused his privilege, but Jonah was on the floor then, and we were still kicking, and congratulating ourselves for punching up. And it began to feel weird and empty when there wasn't a powerful person who had misused their privilege that we could get. A day without a shaming began to feel like a day picking fingernails and treading water.
勢頭如風，瞬息萬變。之前，我們把喬納給揪出來，因為他濫用自己的特權，但當喬納已經倒下了，我們還上去補兩腳，還以為自己英雄了得，沾沾自喜。而當找不到一個濫用職權的人可供攻擊時，甚至會感到寂寞空虛冷。哪天無人可辱，就覺得人生無望，惶惶不可終日了。
Let me tell you a story. It's about a woman called Justine Sacco. She was a PR woman from New York with 170 Twitter followers,and she'd Tweet little acerbic jokes to them, like this one on a plane from NewYork to London: [Weird German Dude: You're in first class. It's 2014. Get some deodorant." -Inner monologue as inhale BO. Thank god for pharmaceuticals.]
這裡給各位說個故事。一位名叫賈絲婷·薩科的女士的故事。她住紐約，從事公關工作，有170位推特粉絲，不時會發些尖酸刻薄的笑話。比如這個，是她從紐約去倫敦途中在飛機上發的：[怪異德國男：你搭的可是頭等艙啊。都2014年了。也不搽點除臭劑。]——呼入體臭時的內心獨白。幸虧我有藥。]
So Justine chuckled to herself, and pressed send, and got no replies, and felt that sad feeling that we all feel when the Internet doesn't congratulate us for being funny. (Laughter) Black silence when the Internet doesn't talk back. And then she got to Heathrow, and she had a little time to spare before her finalleg, so she thought up another funny little acerbic joke:
之後賈絲婷對自己笑了笑，按了發送鍵，沒得到任何回應，頓感一陣悲哀，我們也一樣在網上說了個笑話，沒人搭理，我們也悲哀。（笑聲）網上無人回應，簡直是人間悲劇。抵達希思羅機場後，她還有點空閒時間要打發，離下班飛機起飛還有段時間，她又編了一尖酸小段子：
[Going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS.Just kidding. I'm white!]
[去非洲路上。希望到時不會染上愛滋病。說個笑呵。俺可是白人哦！]
And she chuckled to herself, pressed send,got on the plane, got no replies, turned off her phone, fell asleep, woke up 11hours later, turned on her phone while the plane was taxiing on the runway, and straightaway there was a message from somebody that she hadn't spoken to since high school, that said, "I am so sorry to see what's happening to you." And then another message from a best friend, "You need to call me right now. You are the worldwide number one trending topic on Twitter."(Laughter)
她又自己笑了笑，按了發送鍵，上了飛機，也沒得到回應，關上手機，睡覺去了，11個小時後醒來，打開手機，飛機還在跑道上滑行，旋即，她收到一條簡訊，來自一個她中學畢業後就沒見過的人的，簡訊說:"對於你經歷的這一切，我真替你難過。「還有一個簡訊來自她最要好的朋友：」馬上給我打電話。你成了推特全球第一的熱門話題。「
What had happened is that one of her 170followers had sent the Tweet to a Gawker journalist, and he retweeted it to his15,000 followers: [And now, a funny holiday joke from IAC's PR boss] And then it was like a bolt of lightning. A few weeks later, I talked to the Gawker journalist. I emailed him and asked him how it felt, and he said, "It felt delicious." And then he said, "But I'm sure she's fine."
發生了啥事呢，就是她的那170個粉絲當中有一人將這條推文轉發給了Gawker網的一個記者，後者又轉發給自己的15，000名粉絲：[現送上：IAC公關一姐的假期段子]接下來就一發不可收拾了。幾周之後我聯繫過那個Gawker網記者的。我電郵給他，問他當時感覺如何，他說：「真是痛快之極啊。」接著他說：「我敢保證她沒事。」
But she wasn't fine, because while she slept, Twitter took control of her life and dismantled it piece by piece. Firstthere were the philanthropists: [If @JustineSacco's unfortunate words ...bother you, join me in supporting @CARE's work in Africa.] [In light of ...disgusting, racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today] Then came the beyond horrified: [... no words for that horribly disgusting racist as fuck tweet from Justine Sacco. I am beyond horrified.]
但她怎麼可能沒事，在她睡著的時候，推特掌控了她的生活，並讓其分崩離析。首先下手的是那些慈善家：[如果@賈絲婷·薩科的不慎之言使你不安，來和我一起支持非洲的援助工作吧。][讀了那篇噁心的種族論推文，我今天就捐款給@Care。全文見。.]繼而是更可怕的：[無語。極度種族論，來自賈絲婷·薩科的操蛋貼。我簡直驚呆了。]
Was anybody on Twitter that night? A few of you. Did Justine's joke overwhelm your Twitter feed the way it did mine? It did mine, and I thought what everybody thought that night, which was, "Wow,somebody's screwed! Somebody's life is about to get terrible!"
在座的有那天晚上上推特的嗎？好幾位。你們的推特也像我的那樣被賈絲婷的段子刷屏了嗎？我是被刷屏了，當時就和大家想的一樣，就是：」哇塞，有人捅了馬蜂窩啦！有人要倒大黴了！「
And I sat up in my bed, and I put the pillow behind my head, and then I thought, I'm notentirely sure that joke was intended to be racist. Maybe instead of gleefully flaunting her privilege, she was mocking the gleeful flaunting of privilege.There's a comedy tradition of this, like South Park or Colbert or Randy Newman.
然後我在床上坐起來，抓起枕頭擱腦袋後面，然後琢磨，我真不確定這段子真的有種族主義傾向。也許她並不是在洋洋得意地顯擺自己，只是在嘲諷這種顯擺而已。喜劇裡都有這樣的傳統，如《南方公園》或科爾伯特或蘭迪·紐曼。
Maybe Justine Sacco's crime was not being as good at it as Randy Newman. In fact, when I met Justine a couple of weeks later in a bar, she was just crushed, and I asked her to explain the joke, and she said, "Living in America puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in the Third World. I was making of fun of that bubble."
也許賈絲婷·薩科之罪在於嘲諷得不如蘭迪·紐曼高明吧。事實呢，兩周後我和賈絲婷在一酒吧碰了頭，她人已完全崩潰，我讓她對那個段子做個解釋，她說：」生活在美國就像生活在一個氣泡裡似的，不知道第三世界到底發生了什麼。我是在嘲笑那個氣泡。「
You know, another woman on Twitter that night, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis, she reviewed my book on public shaming and wrote that she Tweeted that night, "I'm not sure that her joke was intended to be racist," and she said straightaway she got a fury of Tweets saying, "Well, you're just a privileged bitch, too." And so to her shame, she wrote, she shut up and watched as Justine's life got torn apart.
那晚在推特上的還有New Statesman雜誌的作家，海倫·劉易斯，她給我關於眾羞的那本書寫了書評，她寫到，當晚她也發個推文：」我不敢肯定她的笑話是藏有種族論用心的，「馬上她就收到一大堆回帖，說:"呵，那你跟她一樣也是個養尊處優的母狗了。」就這樣，她寫到，礙於羞愧，她就閉了嘴，靜觀賈絲婷的生活被瓦解了。
It started to get darker: [Everyone go report this cunt @JustineSacco] Then came the calls for her to be fired. [Goodluck with the job hunt in the new year. #GettingFired] Thousands of people around the world decided it was their duty to get her fired. [@JustineSaccolast tweet of your career. #Sorry Not Sorry Corporations got involved, hoping to sell their products on the back of Justine's annihilation: [Next time you plan to tweet something stupid before you take off, make sure you are getting on a@Gogo flight!]
事情愈發糟糕：[大家都快來舉報這個X婆@賈絲婷·薩科]接著就有人開始說該把她炒了。[祝新年尋工好運。#要找工]全球成千上萬的人將把賈絲婷炒魷魚視為己任。[@賈絲婷·薩科你職途的最後一帖。#悔過不悔過]商家也跑來湊熱鬧，希望能趁機兜售產品，都是順著賈絲婷之途來的：[下一次你登機前要發個豬腦帖的話，務必先買了@Gogo機艙無線網！]
A lot of companies were making good money that night. You know, Justine's name was normally Googled 40 times a month.That month, between December the 20th and the end of December, her name was Googled 1,220,000 times. And one Internet economist told me that that meant that Google made somewhere between 120,000 dollars and 468,000 dollars from Justine's annihilation, whereas those of us doing the actual shaming -- we got nothing. (Laughter) We were like unpaid shaming interns for Google. (Laughter)
不少公司在那天晚上賺了一大筆。賈絲婷的名字平時被谷歌的次數是每月40次。那個月，即12月20日至該月底，她的名字被谷歌了122萬次。一位網絡經濟學家告訴說那意味著谷歌賺了約12萬至46萬8千美元之間全有賴於賈絲婷的毀滅，而我們這些噴子，連一個子兒都沒拿到。（笑聲）我們就好像是谷歌的免薪噴子實習生似的。
And then came the trolls: [I'm actually kind of hoping Justine Sacco gets aids? lol] Somebody else on that wrote,"Somebody HIV-positive should rape this bitch and then we'll find out if her skin color protects her from AIDS." And that person got a free pass.Nobody went after that person.
繼而就是那些尋畔的了：[我不知為何挺希望賈絲婷·薩科真染上愛滋的。大笑]有人在那上面寫道：「應該找個愛滋陽性的去強姦那母狗，我們就能知道她的膚色能否保護她不染愛滋了。」如此惡言者倒免挨板子了。竟沒有一個人去追剿那傢伙。
We were all so excited about destroying Justine,and our shaming brains are so simple-minded, that we couldn't also hand ledestroying somebody who was inappropriately destroying Justine. Justine was really uniting a lot of disparate groups that night, from philanthropists to"rape the bitch." [@Justine Sacco I hope you get fired! You demented bitch... Just let the world know you're planning to ride bare back while in Africa.]
我們人人都為了要毀滅賈絲婷而忙得不可開交。我們的眾辱心態是如此的一心一意，竟無法同時毀滅那些正在無理毀滅賈絲婷的人。賈絲婷在那一晚著實團結了許多種類各異的群體，從做慈善的，到叫喊「強姦那母狗」的都有。[@賈絲婷·薩科我願你被炒魷魚!你這瘋癲的母狗... 向全世界宣告你在非洲的時候將不戴套就做吧。]
Women always have it worse than men. When a man gets shamed, it's, "I'm going to get you fired." When a woman gets shamed, it's, "I'm going to get you fired and raped and cut out your uterus."
這類事件中女性遭受的侮辱總比男性更糟糕。男性在遭受眾辱時，通常是：「我要搞到你被炒魷魚為止。」當女性被眾辱是，通常是：「我要搞到你被炒魷魚，被強姦、割掉你的子宮。「
And then Justine's employers got involved:[IAC on @Justine Sacco tweet: This is an outrageous, offensive comment. Employee in question currently unreachable on an intl flight.] And that's when the anger turned to excitement: [All I want for Christmas is to see @JustineSacco's face when her plane lands and she checks her inbox/voicemail. #fired] [Oh man,@justinesacco is going to have the most painful phone-turning-on moment ever when her plane lands.]
然後呢，賈絲婷的僱主也搭腔了：[IAC就@賈絲婷·薩科發表推文：該帖出言不遜，令人髮指。事主僱員目前在飛機上，暫時聯絡不上。]就這樣，憤怒變成了興奮：[我最想要的聖誕禮物就是看到@賈絲婷·薩科的航班降落後，查看郵箱或留言時收到#被炒魷魚了][哇噻，當@賈絲婷·薩科的航班降落後，她將迎來最痛苦的開手機時刻。]
[We are about to watch this @JustineSacco bitch get fired. In REAL time. Before she even KNOWS she's getting fired.] What we had was a delightful narrative arc. We knew something that Justine didn't. Can you think of anything less judicial than this? Justine was asleep on a plane and unable to explain herself, and her inability was a huge part of the hilarity.On Twitter that night, we were like toddlers crawling towards a gun. Somebody worked out exactly which plane she was on, so they linked to a flight tracker website.
[大夥可以齊齊目睹@賈絲婷·薩科這母狗被炒啦。現場直播。她自己還蒙在鼓裡就被炒魷魚了。]這無疑成了一段精彩的大題目：盡人皆曉的，唯賈絲婷毫不知情。還有比這個更不公正的事情嗎？賈絲婷當時在飛機上睡著，沒機會為自己解釋，而這恰恰是這場鬧劇的一大原因。那天晚上，大家在推特上面就像小屁孩爬著去夠玩具槍似的。有人查到她的航班號，就把航班號連結到一個航班跟蹤網站上面。
[British Airways Flight 43 On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes] Ahashtag began trending worldwide: # has JustineLandedYet? [It is kinda wild to see someone self-destruct without them even being aware of it.#has JustineLandedYet] [Seriously. I just want to go home to go to bed, but everyone at the bar is SO into #Has JustineLandedYet. Can't look away. Can't leave.]
[英國航空43次航班準點--1小時34分後達到]馬上，這一標籤開始在全球走紅：#賈絲婷到達沒有？[圍觀某人的自我毀滅真是叫人興奮，尤其是當事人還毫不知情#賈絲婷到達沒有？][說實話，我本來想回家睡覺的，但是酒吧裡人人都在討論#賈絲婷到達沒有？沒法不聽，沒法走開。]
[#Has JustineLandedYet may be the best thing to happen to my Friday night.] [Is no one in Cape Town going to the airport to tweet her arrival? Come on, twitter! I'd like pictures] And guess what? Yes there was. [@JustineSaccoHAS in fact landed at Cape Town international. And if you want to know what it looks like to discover that you've just been torn to shreds because of amisconstrued liberal joke, not by trolls, but by nice people like us, this is what it looks like: [... She's decided to wear sunnies as a disguise.]
[#賈絲婷到達沒有？可真是我在周五晚的最佳節目。][在開普敦真的沒有人去機場發推報導她的達到嗎？加把勁兒，推特！俺想看圖呢]不用猜，也真的有圖片。[@賈絲婷·薩科確實已經抵達開普敦國際機場。如果各位想知道當一個人發現因自己隨便開的一個玩笑而被千刀萬剮是種什麼體驗，而且下手的不是網絡流氓，而是像你我一樣的好人，讀讀這些推文就明白了：[她選了副墨鏡來做掩護。]
So why did we do it? I think some people were genuinely upset, but I think for other people, it's because Twitter is basically a mutual approval machine. We surround ourselves with people who feel the same way we do, and we approve each other, and that's a really good feeling. And if somebody gets in the way, we screen them out. And do you know what that's the opposite of? It's the opposite of democracy. We wanted to show that we cared about people dying of AIDS in Africa. Our desire to be seen to be compassionate is what led us to commit this profoundly un-compassionate act. As Meghan O'Gieblyn wrote in the Boston Review, "This isn't social justice.It's a cathartic alternative."
我們為什麼會做出這樣的行為的呢？依我之見，有的人確實是因為被冒犯了，但更多的人是因為推特本是個互相恭維的工具。我們只允許志同道合的人在周圍出現，我們互相恭維，感覺好極了。遇到意見不一的，我們就轟走他們。知道這種行為與什麼對立嗎？與民主對立。我們想對非洲瀕臨死亡的愛滋病人表達關懷。我們太過急於表現自己的同情心，結果卻導致了如此缺乏同情心的舉動。像梅根·奧吉布林在《波士頓評論》上寫到："這根本不是社會正義。這是一種宣洩。」
For the past three years, I've been going around the world meeting people like Justine Sacco -- and believe me, there's a lot of people like Justine Sacco. There's more every day. And we want to think they're fine, but they're not fine. The people I met were mangled. They talked to me about depression, and anxiety and insomnia and suicidal thoughts. One woman I talked to, who also told a joke that landed badly, she stayed home fora year and a half. Before that, she worked with adults with learning difficulties, and was apparently really good at her job.
在過去的三年，我走遍世界，走訪多位和賈絲婷·薩科有一樣遭遇的人說實話，這樣的人還真不少。每天都有更多同樣遭遇的。我們都傾向於相信他們沒事，但事實並非如此。每一個人都深受傷害。他們說自己感到抑鬱，焦慮、失眠，甚至想過自殺。其中一位女士，也是因為開了個玩笑，最後悲劇收場她把自己關在家裡足足一年半。之前她的職業是幫助有學習障礙的成年人，並且是個相當稱職的人。
Justine was fired, of course, because social media demanded it. But it was worse than that. She was losing herself.She was waking up in the middle of the night, forgetting who she was. She was got because she was perceived to have misused her privilege. And of course,that's a much better thing to get people for than the things we used to get people for, like having children out of wedlock. But the phrase "misuse of privilege" is becoming a free pass to tear apart pretty much anybody we choose to. It's becoming a devalued term, and it's making us lose our capacity for empathy and for distinguishing between serious and unserious transgressions.
毫無疑問，賈絲婷把工作丟了，因為這是社交媒體上的民意。但更糟的是，她逐漸迷失了自己。有時她半夜醒來，竟然不記得自己是誰。人們把她揪出來，是因為她肆無忌憚秀優越。這比起其他的原因大概好很多吧。從前我們把人揪出來是因為未婚先孕。但「秀優越」一詞已經成了一張通用票，用來打壓任何一個我們想打壓的人。這詞已變得毫無價值，讓我們失去同情的能力，失去區分嚴重過錯和無心之失的能力。
Justine had 170 Twitter followers, and so to make it work, she had to be fictionalized. Word got around that she was the daughter the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco. [Let us not be fooled by#JustineSacco her father is a SA mining billionaire. She's not sorry. And neither is her father.] I thought that was true about Justine, until I met her at a bar, and I asked her about her billionaire father, and she said, "My father sells carpets."
賈絲婷的推特粉絲只有170名，因此，想讓大家點讚，她得編個精彩的故事。有傳言說她是礦業大亨德斯蒙德·薩科的女兒。[別讓#賈絲婷·薩科給耍了，她老爸是SA礦業的億萬富翁。她不會後悔。她老爸也不會.]我也以為賈絲婷真是富家女。直到我在酒吧同她見面，問她富翁爸爸的事兒，她說：「我爸是賣地毯的。」
And I think back on the early days of Twitter, when people would admit shameful secrets about themselves, and other people would say, "Oh my God, I'm exactly the same." These days, the hunt is on for people's shameful secrets. You can lead a good, ethical life,but some bad phraseology in a Tweet can overwhelm it all, become a clue to your secret inner evil.
我回想起推特剛上線的時候，那時人們還會隨意爆一些自己的醜事，其他人就會說，「天啊，我跟你一樣。」現在呢，人人都在抓別人的醜事。你本來生活無憂無慮，但若在推文中說錯了隻言片語，一切就都完了，人們恨不得將你打入十八層地獄。
Maybe there's two types of people in the world: those people who favor humans over ideology, and those people who favorideology over humans. I favor humans over ideology, but right now, the ideologues are winning, and they're creating a stage for constant artificial high dramas where everybody's either a magnificent hero or a sickening villain,even though we know that's not true about our fellow humans.
也許這世界有兩種人：一種人相信人性高於意識形態，一種人相信意識形態高於人性。我屬於前者，但眼下，後者正佔據上風，這些人正在搭建一個舞臺，不停上演一出大戲，戲裡的人不是威猛英雄，就是猥瑣壞人，即使大家都明白其實人不是這樣的。
What's true is that we are clever and stupid; what's true is that we're grey areas. The greatthing about social media was how it gave a voice to voiceless people, but we're now creating a surveillance society, where the smartest way to survive is to go back to being voiceless.
真實的現實是我們既聰明又愚蠢：真實的現實是我們都處於灰色地帶。社交媒體的好處是它能為無處發聲的人提供一個發言的平臺，而現在呢，我們搞出了個間諜社會，要想生存就得噤若寒蟬。
Let's not do that.Thank you.(Applause)
讓我們改變這種局面吧。謝謝大家。（掌聲)
Bruno Giussani: Thank you, Jon.
Jon Ronson: Thanks, Bruno.
布魯諾·吉薩尼:謝謝你，喬恩。
喬恩·朗森：謝謝你，布魯諾。
BG: Don't go away. What strikes me about Justine's story is also the fact that if you Google her name today, this story covers the first 100 pages of Google results -- there is nothing else about her. In your book, you mention another story of another victim who actually got taken on by a reputation management firm, and by creating blogs and postingnice, innocuous stories about her love for cats and holidays and stuff, managed to get the story off the first couple pages of Google results, but it didn't last long. A couple of weeks later, they started creeping back up to the top result. Is this a totally lost battle?
BG：請先別走。賈絲婷的故事最觸動我的是你如今若在谷歌去搜她的名字，搜索結果的開頭100頁都是說她這個故事的——沒有任何其他關於她的信息。你的書還提到了另一個故事，一名受害者找到了一家名譽管理公司，這家公司幫她打造博文，上傳了很多暖心的文章，關於她如何愛貓，如何度假等等，成功地把原來的故事擠出了谷歌搜索結果的前幾頁，不過好景不長。幾星期後，舊故事又重新回到了搜索結果前列。這是不是意味著我們徹底沒戲了？
Jon Ronson: You know, I think the very best thing we can do, if you see a kind of unfair or an ambiguous shaming, is to speak up, because I think the worst thing that happened to Justine was that nobody supported her -- like, everyone was against her, and that is profoundly traumatizing, to be told by tens of thousands of people that you need to get out. But if a shaming happens and there's a babble of voices, like in ademocracy, where people are discussing it, I think that's much less damaging.So I think that's the way forward, but it's hard, because if you do stand up for somebody, it's incredibly unpleasant.
JR:我認為，我們現在能做的，就是一旦發現有人在信口開河地亂噴，就應該大聲指出來，因為我認為對賈絲婷來說最不幸的是沒有人為她說話——似乎每個人都跟她對著幹，這是最讓人寒心的，成千上萬的人讓你滾出去。如果語言攻擊發生時，有不同的聲音在表達不同的觀點，就像民主似的，人人都能發言討論，這樣的話，殺傷力會小很多。我們應該往這個方向努力，當然這很難，因為你一旦站出來為某人說話，下場可能會非常慘。
BG: So let's talk about your experience,because you stood up by writing this book. By the way, it's mandatory reading for everybody, okay? You stood up because the book actually puts the spotlighton shamers. And I assume you didn't only have friendly reactions on Twitter.
BG:那我們說說你的經驗。你挺身而出，還寫了這本書。順便說一句，大家都去讀讀這本書，好嗎？為什麼說你挺身而出，因為你將聚光燈打在了那些噴子身上。我覺得你在推特上沒少挨罵吧。
JR: It didn't go down that well with some people. (Laughter) I mean, you don't want to just concentrate -- because lots of people understood, and were really nice about the book. But yeah, for 30years I've been writing stories about abuses of power, and when I say the powerful people over there in the military, or in the pharmaceutical industry,everybody applauds me. As soon as I say, "We are the powerful people abusing our power now," I get people saying, "Well you must be a racist too."
JR:有些人確實不怎麼喜歡我。(笑聲)我是說，你不想僅僅關注——很多人都能明白，都很接受這本書。過去30年來我一直在寫關於濫用職權的報導，當我曝光軍隊裡位高權重之人，或者醫藥行業裡隻手遮天之人，人人都鼓掌叫好。直到我說：「你我也是有權之人，我們也在濫用權力」時，有人就說：「你肯定也是個種族主義者。」
BG: So the other night -- yesterday -- we were at dinner, and there were two discussions going on. On one side you were talking with people around the table -- and that was a nice, constructive discussion. On the other, every time you turned to your phone, there is this deluge of insults.
BG:昨晚我們一起吃飯時，有兩個討論在同時進行。一個發生在你和同桌其他人之間——這個討論氣氛良好、很有建設性。另一個討論發生在你的手機裡，滿眼汙言穢語。
JR: Yeah. This happened last night. We had like a TED dinner last night. We were chatting and it was lovely and nice, and I decided to check Twitter. Somebody said, "You are a white supremacist." And then I went back and had a nice conversation with somebody, and then I went back to Twitter, somebody said my very existence made the world a worse place. My friend Adam Curtis says that maybe the Internet is like a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s, when eventually everyone will start screaming at each other and shooting each other, and then eventually everybody would flee to somewhere safer, and I'm starting to think of that as a really nice option.
JR：沒錯。這事兒發生在昨晚的TED晚宴上，我們在聊天，氣氛融洽，然後我就去查看推特。有人說：「你是個白人至上者."然後我回到餐桌，和某人愉快地交談了一會兒。再次打開推特，又有人說我的存在讓這個世界變得更糟糕了。我朋友亞當·柯蒂斯說也許網絡就像80年代約翰·卡彭特的電影，最終人人都聲嘶力竭地開始對罵，掏出槍來開始對射，直到最後人人都逃去一個更安全的地方。我在想那的確是一個不錯的選擇。
BG: Jon, thank you. JR: Thank you, Bruno.(Applause)
BG:喬恩，謝謝你。JR:謝謝你，布魯諾。(掌聲)